Interesting thoughts! Oh and I like that here I can edit my typos unlike on WordPress :)
It looks like you copied part of what I said before I took out the word "face" - I was using my microphone and not even sure where that came from!
I do understand how one might perceive what I said as confirmation bias. Again, as I see it, no matter of Faith or God can ultimately be proven. Those that come to God come in faith believing that he is, and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.
I am always troubled by Christians that reduce prayer down to asking for sports victory and outcomes! I suppose I'm biased in that since I'm not a huge sports fan but it seems such a small, reductionistic request of such a big, huge God who so intimately cares about the big matters but knows the small matters that are of great importance to the human soul.
The best test ever done by a christian organization pretty much answered the question about intercessory prayer. Christians don't like the answer, but it's VERY clear what the answer was. Prayer made absolutely no difference. Other than some meditative affects for those praying (which I would argue IS useful), it did nothing for those being prayed for.
I think that prayer is our most direct means of connecting to God. Definitely presents an existential problem for many people throughout history (or maybe it's someone in our realm) when they have determined God either doesn't exist or God doesn't care about them based on perceived outcome of prayer. The notion of God's presence or absence in the prayer experience can be powerful. I like the parts you wrote about walking in darkness, and trusting God. I think another issue in some cases may be perseverance. How many times or how many years should one pray something with no desired answer before they pronounce it unanswered.
"based on perceived outcome of prayer." you know..sometimes the outcome is obvious and clear and perception plays no role at all.
The answer from God (all gods) is yes, no, maybe.
The best test ever done by a christian organization pretty much answered the question about intercessory prayer. Christians don't like the answer, but it's VERY clear what the answer was. Prayer made absolutely no difference. Other than some meditative affects for those praying (which I would argue IS useful), it did nothing for those being prayed for.
I think it would be hard to have a test or study of prayer outcome! As you said, the process itself holds immense value for those that pray, those that listen and those that ask for prayer and know they have received it.
A responsive answer in the natural realm prayer would be seen as a supernatural event. I've definitely had many many perceived observations of supernatural answers to prayer. And that doesn't mean what I asked for unfolded, sometimes it means that things unfolded in a way far better than I could have asked or known to ask. There's a protective element, too.
In my view, these supernatural answers are in the eye of the beholder (me, or others who were praying). They are occurrences in the natural realm whose nature and timing is such that the observer would only consider it a natural coincidence, but the beholder acknowledges the hand of God!
So it is seen as miraculous in timing or nature, and of course cannot be proven.
But to Rex's main point, I agree wholeheartedly that we cannot or should not view prayer as some tool that either works or does not work. When we pray, at least for me, we run into the shelter of our God seeking his working and care for our lives and those of others.
"I think it would be hard to have a test or study of prayer outcome! "
You should look at how the templeton organization did their study. It was very high quality indeed. They did an excellent job of testing intercessory prayer.
"As you said, the process itself holds immense value for those that pray, those that listen and those that ask for prayer and know they have received it."
Yes, prayer is no doubt a form of meditation and meditation across all different faiths has proven to benefit the person meditating. There have even been very good studies done of Buddist monks showing changes in their brains connected to meditation. Prayer works in this area for people of religions all over the world.
"A responsive answer in the natural realm prayer would be seen as a supernatural event. "
No, for example, many people pray for sports outcomes and when they get what they prayed for it's not supernatural. In reality, the game just went how it went. Totally naturalistic. That's just one example...
"I've definitely had many many perceived observations of supernatural answers to prayer. And that doesn't mean what I asked for unfolded, sometimes it means that things unfolded in a way far better than I could have asked or known to ask. There's a protective element, too.
In my view, these supernatural answers are in the eye of the beholder (me, or others who were praying). They are occurrences in the natural realm whose and nature and timing is such that the observer would only consider it a natural coincidence, but the beholder, in face, acknowledges the hand of God!"
You've just COMPLETELY and PERFECTLY described confirmation bias. This is why we should not rely on perception to determine if something like prayer is actually functional, we should rely on actual good stringent data. The templeton foundation set out to do that in order to prove that prayer works, they didn't get the results they thought they would, they got reality. In their favor, they accepted and published the results because they were honorable.
Ahhh. I had dictated a whole comment but must not have hit post.
Basically, I may be biased but I don't think any matter of faith and God can ultimately be measured or proven. Those that come to God come in faith and believe that he is, and a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. The ultimate reward is to experience his tangible presence that is apart from outcome.
So that in and of itself makes prayer results not of the nature of measure, per se. But you have brought up good points about measurable effects on one's brain activity and body.
I'm not really a sports fan and I find Christians that seek God to determine the outcome of a sports game quite reductionistic! God cares about both the Great and Small matters but I'm not so sure he's a Phillies fan, just for one example.
But surely he cares for the intimate details of all human experience as they participate.
Anyway thanks for the dialogue! I must be on to other matters.
Interesting thoughts! Oh and I like that here I can edit my typos unlike on WordPress :)
It looks like you copied part of what I said before I took out the word "face" - I was using my microphone and not even sure where that came from!
I do understand how one might perceive what I said as confirmation bias. Again, as I see it, no matter of Faith or God can ultimately be proven. Those that come to God come in faith believing that he is, and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.
I am always troubled by Christians that reduce prayer down to asking for sports victory and outcomes! I suppose I'm biased in that since I'm not a huge sports fan but it seems such a small, reductionistic request of such a big, huge God who so intimately cares about the big matters but knows the small matters that are of great importance to the human soul.
The answer from God (all gods) is yes, no, maybe.
The best test ever done by a christian organization pretty much answered the question about intercessory prayer. Christians don't like the answer, but it's VERY clear what the answer was. Prayer made absolutely no difference. Other than some meditative affects for those praying (which I would argue IS useful), it did nothing for those being prayed for.
https://acetutors.com.sg/The-Great-Prayer-Experiment-Funded-By-Templeton-Foundation#:~:text=The%20aim%20of%20the%20experiment,patients%20at%20six%20different%20hospitals.
I think that prayer is our most direct means of connecting to God. Definitely presents an existential problem for many people throughout history (or maybe it's someone in our realm) when they have determined God either doesn't exist or God doesn't care about them based on perceived outcome of prayer. The notion of God's presence or absence in the prayer experience can be powerful. I like the parts you wrote about walking in darkness, and trusting God. I think another issue in some cases may be perseverance. How many times or how many years should one pray something with no desired answer before they pronounce it unanswered.
"based on perceived outcome of prayer." you know..sometimes the outcome is obvious and clear and perception plays no role at all.
The answer from God (all gods) is yes, no, maybe.
The best test ever done by a christian organization pretty much answered the question about intercessory prayer. Christians don't like the answer, but it's VERY clear what the answer was. Prayer made absolutely no difference. Other than some meditative affects for those praying (which I would argue IS useful), it did nothing for those being prayed for.
https://acetutors.com.sg/The-Great-Prayer-Experiment-Funded-By-Templeton-Foundation#:~:text=The%20aim%20of%20the%20experiment,patients%20at%20six%20different%20hospitals.
I think it would be hard to have a test or study of prayer outcome! As you said, the process itself holds immense value for those that pray, those that listen and those that ask for prayer and know they have received it.
A responsive answer in the natural realm prayer would be seen as a supernatural event. I've definitely had many many perceived observations of supernatural answers to prayer. And that doesn't mean what I asked for unfolded, sometimes it means that things unfolded in a way far better than I could have asked or known to ask. There's a protective element, too.
In my view, these supernatural answers are in the eye of the beholder (me, or others who were praying). They are occurrences in the natural realm whose nature and timing is such that the observer would only consider it a natural coincidence, but the beholder acknowledges the hand of God!
So it is seen as miraculous in timing or nature, and of course cannot be proven.
But to Rex's main point, I agree wholeheartedly that we cannot or should not view prayer as some tool that either works or does not work. When we pray, at least for me, we run into the shelter of our God seeking his working and care for our lives and those of others.
"I think it would be hard to have a test or study of prayer outcome! "
You should look at how the templeton organization did their study. It was very high quality indeed. They did an excellent job of testing intercessory prayer.
"As you said, the process itself holds immense value for those that pray, those that listen and those that ask for prayer and know they have received it."
Yes, prayer is no doubt a form of meditation and meditation across all different faiths has proven to benefit the person meditating. There have even been very good studies done of Buddist monks showing changes in their brains connected to meditation. Prayer works in this area for people of religions all over the world.
"A responsive answer in the natural realm prayer would be seen as a supernatural event. "
No, for example, many people pray for sports outcomes and when they get what they prayed for it's not supernatural. In reality, the game just went how it went. Totally naturalistic. That's just one example...
"I've definitely had many many perceived observations of supernatural answers to prayer. And that doesn't mean what I asked for unfolded, sometimes it means that things unfolded in a way far better than I could have asked or known to ask. There's a protective element, too.
In my view, these supernatural answers are in the eye of the beholder (me, or others who were praying). They are occurrences in the natural realm whose and nature and timing is such that the observer would only consider it a natural coincidence, but the beholder, in face, acknowledges the hand of God!"
You've just COMPLETELY and PERFECTLY described confirmation bias. This is why we should not rely on perception to determine if something like prayer is actually functional, we should rely on actual good stringent data. The templeton foundation set out to do that in order to prove that prayer works, they didn't get the results they thought they would, they got reality. In their favor, they accepted and published the results because they were honorable.
Ahhh. I had dictated a whole comment but must not have hit post.
Basically, I may be biased but I don't think any matter of faith and God can ultimately be measured or proven. Those that come to God come in faith and believe that he is, and a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. The ultimate reward is to experience his tangible presence that is apart from outcome.
So that in and of itself makes prayer results not of the nature of measure, per se. But you have brought up good points about measurable effects on one's brain activity and body.
I'm not really a sports fan and I find Christians that seek God to determine the outcome of a sports game quite reductionistic! God cares about both the Great and Small matters but I'm not so sure he's a Phillies fan, just for one example.
But surely he cares for the intimate details of all human experience as they participate.
Anyway thanks for the dialogue! I must be on to other matters.